Consultation on South End Green


Jean Dollimore
 

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Norman Franklin
 

I feel strongly that there should be traffic lights at the s 639 trlleybuses, abolished in 1961 used to park in the main road, outside the Gents, and there never seeemed to be  problem at that very busy junction, thePond Street Fleet Road crossing.  I hate the idea that we might cycle through the streetery.  Can the  bus park be arranged so that3 168s and 3 24s can park at the same time (I have my doubts)  One place for the !^*s to park is outside the Peace Garden.

Norman Franklin
Flat 5
17-19 Elsworthy Road
London NW3 3DS
phone 02077224543
mobile 07504111095
mobile 07954111095


On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:
Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




George Coulouris
 

This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 


The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:


I think we should object to that junction design.

George

On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)



Elena Moynihan
 

I am here a lot both walking and cycling as it's very local.

Firstly, huge hurray that it's hopefully finally happening, we've been asking for this for a decade or more:  the usual super-vocal minority screaming and shouting against it for no apparent reason.

Regarding your points on cycling, all very valid, the only thing I would say is that these are very very busy roads:  heavy traffic down East Heath, and of course Pond St with the Hospital.  They are never going to be an oasis of peace :-) .  I don't have an answer about that junction but cycling down South End is always going to be trafficky I think, and I can't see how they can carve out cycle lanes, just not enough space.

What would be nice is if the strip of parking spaces that has been taken out since Covid ( we still have those plastic barriers in there) was made permanent, and that side of the road was made into a cycle lane, following on from the slip road:  what do people think ?

E.


On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 17:38, George Coulouris <coulouris@...> wrote:
This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 


The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:


I think we should object to that junction design.

George

On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)



Mick Farrant
 

Tgis is a dangerous space for all, not just cyclists. Made worse by parked buses on Fleet Road often for long periods. Unclear also of changes in bus routes ? more or less  Not sure of solution but more thought needed/ Msjor area for patients etc to RF

 

Mick Farrant

 

From: main@camdencyclists.groups.io <main@camdencyclists.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Coulouris
Sent: 22 September 2022 17:38
To: main@camdencyclists.groups.io
Subject: Re: [camdencyclists] Consultation on South End Green

 

This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

 

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 

 

 

The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:

 

 

I think we should object to that junction design.

 

George



On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

 

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

 

 


Richard Thomas
 

I doubt many will agree, but I don't think the current arrangement is bad. The zebras are great. Almost all the cars come close to stopping and take turns. What's missing is a zebra from outside Silverberry to the fountain rather than having to walk up the hill to the one up by M&S. Are the any accident statistics to suggest the current arrangement is dangerous? If not, perhaps what it needs is something to give cyclists confidence. But it's not easy. Could the zebras be made into parallel crossings, especially to help the South End Green Road to Pond Street turn. Coming out of Pond Street into Constantine takes a bit of confidence/assertiveness.

Perhaps a mini roundabout would help formalise the turn taking and clarify rights of way. But I'd keep the existing turn from Fleet Road to Constantine. There would be more space if some of the island with the toilets could be removed, and also the space round the fountain. These are underused spaces of little amenity value because they are effectively in the middle of a busy road junction. 

I think it would be a mistake to remove the island linking the zebras crossings. But perhaps you'd have to sacrifice it for a mini roundabout or two. 

At least they aren't proposing traffic lights!

Where can we comment?

Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022, 18:06 Mick Farrant via groups.io, <mirog=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Tgis is a dangerous space for all, not just cyclists. Made worse by parked buses on Fleet Road often for long periods. Unclear also of changes in bus routes ? more or less  Not sure of solution but more thought needed/ Msjor area for patients etc to RF

 

Mick Farrant

 

From: main@camdencyclists.groups.io <main@camdencyclists.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Coulouris
Sent: 22 September 2022 17:38
To: main@camdencyclists.groups.io
Subject: Re: [camdencyclists] Consultation on South End Green

 

This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

 

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 

 

 

The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:

 

 

I think we should object to that junction design.

 

George



On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

 

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

 

 


Douglas Schwab
 

Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Richard Thomas
 

Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard


On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




James Brander
 

Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Elena Moynihan
 

James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus depos have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




James Brander
 

Hi Elena,
The 168 bus will still use the northwestern slip road, and will still sit there waiting to cross to the southeast slip road.
Fleet Road is already used as a holding area for the 24, whose future is uncertain anyway.
Jean asked us to think of ideas to help cyclists. That was mine, impractical as it might be.
Best wishes
James Brander 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, 14:42 Elena Moynihan, <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:
James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus depos have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Jean Dollimore
 

I am sorry to have to say that I believe that Elena is right in saying that the bus stands are not going to be moved away from the south eastern loop road.

But there are other simpler ways to make the junction safer for cycling. I have identified three of the turns that seem to me to be conditions that give rise to the most common types of collisions. (See turns numbered 1, 2 and 3 in the sketch)


1. Turning right from South End Road into Pond Street (e.g. to go to the Hospital): here there is a risk of what we call ‘left hook’ - i.e. as the cycle moves ahead a motor vehicle comes from behind and turns left across the path of the cycle.
- this can be avoided by using the slip road as indicated by the blue dashed line. (one of you suggested that it would be a good idea to use Tiger crossings to help with right turns into and out of the slip road). I have indicated the position of existing zebra crossings (heavy dashes). These could  be converted to Tiger (or parallel) crossings. The one on South End Road would need to have the central island removed.

2. Going straight ahead on Fleet Road: another left hook situation. 
- the cyclists could turn into Pond Street and use the slip road via the Pond Street Tiger crossing

3. Going straight ahead on Pond Street into Constantine Road: another left hook situation plus the difficulty of making the movement when the middle of the junction is blocked by motor vehicles waiting to tum right. 
- this could be solved by means of another Tiger crossing across South End Road close to the junction (the informal crossing would be moved down and replaced by a zebra).

How does this look?

Jean


On 24 Sep 2022, at 21:29, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:

Hi Elena,
The 168 bus will still use the northwestern slip road, and will still sit there waiting to cross to the southeast slip road.
Fleet Road is already used as a holding area for the 24, whose future is uncertain anyway.
Jean asked us to think of ideas to help cyclists. That was mine, impractical as it might be.
Best wishes
James Brander 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, 14:42 Elena Moynihan, <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:
James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus  : another left hook situation. have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean











Elena Moynihan
 

I like it, seems like a doable and sensible solution Jean, as always !



On Sun, 25 Sept 2022 at 18:23, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:
I am sorry to have to say that I believe that Elena is right in saying that the bus stands are not going to be moved away from the south eastern loop road.

But there are other simpler ways to make the junction safer for cycling. I have identified three of the turns that seem to me to be conditions that give rise to the most common types of collisions. (See turns numbered 1, 2 and 3 in the sketch)


1. Turning right from South End Road into Pond Street (e.g. to go to the Hospital): here there is a risk of what we call ‘left hook’ - i.e. as the cycle moves ahead a motor vehicle comes from behind and turns left across the path of the cycle.
- this can be avoided by using the slip road as indicated by the blue dashed line. (one of you suggested that it would be a good idea to use Tiger crossings to help with right turns into and out of the slip road). I have indicated the position of existing zebra crossings (heavy dashes). These could  be converted to Tiger (or parallel) crossings. The one on South End Road would need to have the central island removed.

2. Going straight ahead on Fleet Road: another left hook situation. 
- the cyclists could turn into Pond Street and use the slip road via the Pond Street Tiger crossing

3. Going straight ahead on Pond Street into Constantine Road: another left hook situation plus the difficulty of making the movement when the middle of the junction is blocked by motor vehicles waiting to tum right. 
- this could be solved by means of another Tiger crossing across South End Road close to the junction (the informal crossing would be moved down and replaced by a zebra).

How does this look?

Jean


On 24 Sep 2022, at 21:29, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:

Hi Elena,
The 168 bus will still use the northwestern slip road, and will still sit there waiting to cross to the southeast slip road.
Fleet Road is already used as a holding area for the 24, whose future is uncertain anyway.
Jean asked us to think of ideas to help cyclists. That was mine, impractical as it might be.
Best wishes
James Brander 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, 14:42 Elena Moynihan, <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:
James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus  : another left hook situation. have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean











Jean Dollimore
 

I have attached our response (based on the above email exchanges and a further discussion at a committee meeting on Monday).

The deadline is 9th October so you still have time to reply here:


Thanks for all the feedback

Jean




On 26 Sep 2022, at 08:54, Elena Moynihan <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:

I like it, seems like a doable and sensible solution Jean, as always !



On Sun, 25 Sept 2022 at 18:23, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:
I am sorry to have to say that I believe that Elena is right in saying that the bus stands are not going to be moved away from the south eastern loop road.

But there are other simpler ways to make the junction safer for cycling. I have identified three of the turns that seem to me to be conditions that give rise to the most common types of collisions. (See turns numbered 1, 2 and 3 in the sketch)
<PastedGraphic-3.tiff>


1. Turning right from South End Road into Pond Street (e.g. to go to the Hospital): here there is a risk of what we call ‘left hook’ - i.e. as the cycle moves ahead a motor vehicle comes from behind and turns left across the path of the cycle.
- this can be avoided by using the slip road as indicated by the blue dashed line. (one of you suggested that it would be a good idea to use Tiger crossings to help with right turns into and out of the slip road). I have indicated the position of existing zebra crossings (heavy dashes). These could  be converted to Tiger (or parallel) crossings. The one on South End Road would need to have the central island removed.

2. Going straight ahead on Fleet Road: another left hook situation. 
- the cyclists could turn into Pond Street and use the slip road via the Pond Street Tiger crossing

3. Going straight ahead on Pond Street into Constantine Road: another left hook situation plus the difficulty of making the movement when the middle of the junction is blocked by motor vehicles waiting to tum right. 
- this could be solved by means of another Tiger crossing across South End Road close to the junction (the informal crossing would be moved down and replaced by a zebra).

How does this look?

Jean


On 24 Sep 2022, at 21:29, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:

Hi Elena,
The 168 bus will still use the northwestern slip road, and will still sit there waiting to cross to the southeast slip road.
Fleet Road is already used as a holding area for the 24, whose future is uncertain anyway.
Jean asked us to think of ideas to help cyclists. That was mine, impractical as it might be.
Best wishes
James Brander 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, 14:42 Elena Moynihan, <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:
James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus  : another left hook situation. have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean