[CCC] Tony Raven's near-death:


Paul Gannon
 

I can't imagine that Lionel's interpretation is correct, though it does reflect a lot of motor driver behaviour whereby they believe that once they have the front tip of their vehicle in front of a cyclist, they can turn left in front of them - the legendary 'left hook'. 

However, the Highway Code points 182 and 183 make the general point clear and specifically instructs to 'give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane ..'. Lionel seems to be suggesting that any bus lane is 'suspended' to allow vehicles to cross it without committing an offence at a junction. But if this was true, the HC would be wrong and superfluous. 

Also, logically Lionel's concept would apply to vehicles turning right across on-coming bus lanes users!

Also, why does Lionel's concept not apply too to cycle lanes and track?  Logically again it should, but we know that it doesn't on the Camden tracks.

Think also of the consequences - buses and taxis (passenger carrying) as well as cyclists, would have to be ready at any moment to slam on the brakes as soon as any vehicle on the right put on its left indicators (or right if coming from the opposite direction).

I'm sure Lionel is totally wrong and the left-turning vehicle must give way to users on its nearside.
Paul

182

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.

183 - give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane or tramway from either direction

Do not cut in on cyclists

























To: CamdenCyclingCampaign@...
From: david.scollan@...
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:46:39 +0000
Subject: RE: [CCC] Tony Raven's near-death: perhaps the driver was not 'wrong'?

 

All vehicles are allowed to undertake in slow moving traffic but not if the traffic is free flowing, so it’s not clear cut if the traffic is moving at say 15mph.

 

Rule 72 (specific to cyclists)  says :

72
On the left. When approaching a junction on the left, watch out for vehicles turning in front of you, out of or into the side road. Just before you turn, check for undertaking cyclists or motorcyclists. Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left.

See:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069837

This rule does not exclude Tony’s specific situation so, if a vehicle is turning left from the outside lane I suspect that it is still covered by this law? But it isn’t clear.

The general rule of the road however is that a vehicle going straight ahead has priority over any vehicle turning, except in a few specific situations eg roundabouts

In summary, this situation is not clear cut.

Regards
DS

 

From: CamdenCyclingCampaign@... [mailto:CamdenCyclingCampaign@...] On Behalf Of George Coulouris
Sent: 07 March 2012 14:15
To: CamdenCyclingCampaign@...
Subject: Re: [CCC] Tony Raven's near-death: perhaps the driver was not 'wrong'?

 

 


This Streetview and the next 4-5 steps forward on it show Euston Road westbound with the markings approaching the Judd St. intersection.
http://g.co/maps/4qznr
But Lionel, I don't follow your reasoning at all. In city traffic, vehicles of all sorts undertake each other all the time. Otherwise you would see many nonsensical situations where a car is stopped in the LH lane whenever there is slow-moving traffic to its right. Surely the overriding rule is 'don't change lanes unless it's safe to do so'.

George C.


 

 

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Lionel Shapiro <lishapiro@...>
 

About the 'suspended' issue of the bus-lane [and cycle lane]: as I said, I don't know of the specific bit at Tony's place, but you should look around on the bus-lanes near some turns at least: the bus-lanes get quite specific that they don't exist.

Paul, I hope you and not I are correct in general!
Lionel Shapiro
13, Primrose Hill Road
London   NW3  3DG
+44 (0) 20 7722 8864

On 07/03/2012 19:15, Paul Gannon wrote:
I can't imagine that Lionel's interpretation is correct, though it does reflect a lot of motor driver behaviour whereby they believe that once they have the front tip of their vehicle in front of a cyclist, they can turn left in front of them - the legendary 'left hook'. 

However, the Highway Code points 182 and 183 make the general point clear and specifically instructs to 'give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane ..'. Lionel seems to be suggesting that any bus lane is 'suspended' to allow vehicles to cross it without committing an offence at a junction. But if this was true, the HC would be wrong and superfluous. 

Also


Tony Raven
 

My apologies for being away from the discussion for a short while.  First, to quote Mark Twain, reports of my "near death" are much exaggerated.

Second I am well aware of the on-off bus lanes issue all along Euston Road and it is something that should perhaps be looked at as it's not clear to an inexperienced cyclist what they should do at the ones which become left turn only lanes just short of the junction only for the bus lane to restart across the junction.  There is also a tendency for vehicles to turn left straight from the middle lane without regard to bicycles to their left. Normal practice by buses, who have size on their side, seems to be to treat them as a continuous straight ahead bus lane.

To answer Lionel's points though the truck was in the middle lane initially.  I was alongside the cab in the primary position in the bus lane.  As it started to come over into the left lane I was still alongside his cab ( hence the passenger leaning out and shouting at me where I must admit some fault in being distracted looking up at him and trying to work out what he was saying rather than paying attention to what he was doing).  I didn't have many options.  Going forward was blocked by the bus in front plus it's doubtful even if I knew what was going to happen, that I could have accelerated ahead of him.  It was also not an option in the time and space available to drop back the whole length of the truck to fall in behind.   What caught me by surprise was that while talking to me from he cab he should then turn straight into me.

On the legality of passing on the left, cyclists have been filtering on the left for a century without to my knowledge any legal objection.  It has therefore become accepted practice that is reinforced by the occasional painting of cycle lanes in that location.  Even though it is not relevant here I think it would be a long shot to rely on the defence as a driver that it was unusual or unexpected behaviour for a cyclist to pass on the left.

-- 
Tony

Apologies for any typos; sent from my iPad

On 8 Mar 2012, at 10:36, Lionel Shapiro <lishapiro@...> wrote:

 

About the 'suspended' issue of the bus-lane [and cycle lane]: as I said, I don't know of the specific bit at Tony's place, but you should look around on the bus-lanes near some turns at least: the bus-lanes get quite specific that they don't exist.

Paul, I hope you and not I are correct in general!

Lionel Shapiro
13, Primrose Hill Road
London   NW3  3DG
+44 (0) 20 7722 8864

On 07/03/2012 19:15, Paul Gannon wrote:
I can't imagine that Lionel's interpretation is correct, though it does reflect a lot of motor driver behaviour whereby they believe that once they have the front tip of their vehicle in front of a cyclist, they can turn left in front of them - the legendary 'left hook'. 

However, the Highway Code points 182 and 183 make the general point clear and specifically instructs to 'give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane ..'. Lionel seems to be suggesting that any bus lane is 'suspended' to allow vehicles to cross it without committing an offence at a junction. But if this was true, the HC would be wrong and superfluous. 

Also


richendawalford
 

Tony

 

Could you estimate the speed you and the truck were travelling?   Were the speeds the same or was one of you in the process of moving ahead of the other?

 

The legalities are interesting but I’m also interested in exactly what happened from the point of view of how the rest of us can avoid it in future.

 

You should accept no blame for being distracted when the passenger started shouting at you.  How could you not be?

 

Richenda Walford
London Remembers  & Facebook & Twitter: @LondonRemembers

George Walford International Essay Prize

 

From: CamdenCyclingCampaign@... [mailto:CamdenCyclingCampaign@...] On Behalf Of Tony Raven
Sent: 08 March 2012 14:20
To: CamdenCyclingCampaign@...
Subject: Re: [CCC] Tony Raven's near-death:

 

 

My apologies for being away from the discussion for a short while.  First, to quote Mark Twain, reports of my "near death" are much exaggerated.

 

Second I am well aware of the on-off bus lanes issue all along Euston Road and it is something that should perhaps be looked at as it's not clear to an inexperienced cyclist what they should do at the ones which become left turn only lanes just short of the junction only for the bus lane to restart across the junction.  There is also a tendency for vehicles to turn left straight from the middle lane without regard to bicycles to their left. Normal practice by buses, who have size on their side, seems to be to treat them as a continuous straight ahead bus lane.

 

To answer Lionel's points though the truck was in the middle lane initially.  I was alongside the cab in the primary position in the bus lane.  As it started to come over into the left lane I wa s still alongside his cab ( hence the passenger leaning out and shouting at me where I must admit some fault in being distracted looking up at him and trying to work out what he was saying rather than paying attention to what he was doing).  I didn't have many options.  Going forward was blocked by the bus in front plus it's doubtful even if I knew what was going to happen, that I could have accelerated ahead of him.  It was also not an option in the time and space available to drop back the whole length of the truck to fall in behind.   What caught me by surprise was that while talking to me from he cab he should then turn straight into me.

On the legality of passing on the left, cyclists have been filtering on the left for a century without to my knowledge any legal objection.  It has therefore become accepted practice that is reinforced by the occasional painting of cycle lanes in that location.  Even though it is not relevant here I t hink it would be a long shot to rely on the defence as a driver that it was unusual or unexpected behaviour for a cyclist to pass on the left.

 

-- 

Tony

 

Apologies for any typos; sent from my iPad


On 8 Mar 2012, at 10:36, Lionel Shapiro <lishapiro@...> wrote:

 

About the 'suspended' issue of the bus-lane [and cycle lane]: as I said, I don't know of the specific bit at Tony's place, but you should look around on the bus-lanes near some turns at least: the bus-lanes get quite specific that they don't exist.

Paul, I hope you and not I are correct in general!

Lionel Shapiro
13, Primrose Hill Road
London   NW3  3DG
+44 (0) 20 7722 8864


On 07/03/2012 19:15, Paul Gannon wrote:

I can't imagine that Lionel's interpretation is correct, though it does reflect a lot of motor driver behaviour whereby they believe that once they have the front tip of their vehicle in front of a cyclist, they can turn left in front of them - the legendary 'left hook'. 

 

However, the Highway Code points 182 and 183 make the general point clear and specifically instructs to 'give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane ..'. Lionel seems to be suggesting that any bus lane is 'suspended' to allow vehicles to cross it without committing an offence at a junction. But if this was true, the HC would be wrong and superfluous. 

 

Also

 


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Tony Raven
 

It was one of those stop/move 10mph-ish things where the lanes move roughly together, sometimes ones moving ahead, sometimes the other.  This was in a move phase and just before I had spotted that there was a gap to move out and round the bus by going in front of the truck but it being a truck I chose not to take the risk.

Tony


On 08/03/2012 14:32, Richenda Walford wrote:
 

Tony

 

Could you estimate the speed you and the truck were travelling?   Were the speeds the same or was one of you in the process of moving ahead of the other?

 

The legalities are interesting but I’m also interested in exactly what happened from the point of view of how the rest of us can avoid it in future.

 

You should accept no blame for being distracted when the passenger started shouting at you.  How could you not be?

 

Richenda Walford
London Remembers  & Facebook & Twitter: @LondonRemembers

George Walford International Essay Prize

 

From: CamdenCyclingCampaign@... [mailto:CamdenCyclingCampaign@...] On Behalf Of Tony Raven
Sent: 08 March 2012 14:20
To: CamdenCyclingCampaign@...
Subject: Re: [CCC] Tony Raven's near-death:

 

 

My apologies for being away from the discussion for a short while.  First, to quote Mark Twain, reports of my "near death" are much exaggerated.

 

Second I am well aware of the on-off bus lanes issue all along Euston Road and it is something that should perhaps be looked at as it's not clear to an inexperienced cyclist what they should do at the ones which become left turn only lanes just short of the junction only for the bus lane to restart across the junction.  There is also a tendency for vehicles to turn left straight from the middle lane without regard to bicycles to their left. Normal practice by buses, who have size on their side, seems to be to treat them as a continuous straight ahead bus lane.

 

To answer Lionel's points though the truck was in the middle lane initially.  I was alongside the cab in the primary position in the bus lane.  As it started to come over into the left lane I wa s still alongside his cab ( hence the passenger leaning out and shouting at me where I must admit some fault in being distracted looking up at him and trying to work out what he was saying rather than paying attention to what he was doing).  I didn't have many options.  Going forward was blocked by the bus in front plus it's doubtful even if I knew what was going to happen, that I could have accelerated ahead of him.  It was also not an option in the time and space available to drop back the whole length of the truck to fall in behind.   What caught me by surprise was that while talking to me from he cab he should then turn straight into me.

On the legality of passing on the left, cyclists have been filtering on the left for a century without to my knowledge any legal objection.  It has therefore become accepted practice that is reinforced by the occasional painting of cycle lanes in that location.  Even though it is not relevant here I t hink it would be a long shot to rely on the defence as a driver that it was unusual or unexpected behaviour for a cyclist to pass on the left.

 

-- 

Tony

 

Apologies for any typos; sent from my iPad


On 8 Mar 2012, at 10:36, Lionel Shapiro <lishapiro@...> wrote:

 

About the 'suspended' issue of the bus-lane [and cycle lane]: as I said, I don't know of the specific bit at Tony's place, but you should look around on the bus-lanes near some turns at least: the bus-lanes get quite specific that they don't exist.

Paul, I hope you and not I are correct in general!

Lionel Shapiro
13, Primrose Hill Road
London   NW3  3DG
+44 (0) 20 7722 8864


On 07/03/2012 19:15, Paul Gannon wrote:

I can't imagine that Lionel's interpretation is correct, though it does reflect a lot of motor driver behaviour whereby they believe that once they have the front tip of their vehicle in front of a cyclist, they can turn left in front of them - the legendary 'left hook'. 

 

However, the Highway Code points 182 and 183 make the general point clear and specifically instructs to 'give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane ..'. Lionel seems to be suggesting that any bus lane is 'suspended' to allow vehicles to cross it without committing an offence at a junction. But if this was true, the HC would be wrong and superfluous. 

 

Also

 


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richendawalford
 

Tony

 

Yes, that’s what I was imagining.  It’s the sort of situation where cyclists are repeatedly making decisions while all the other drivers, safe in their metal boxes, pretty well tune out.  I re-watched the video at Cycling Intelligence which shows all the blind spots around a LGV.   This time it just made me angry.  Angry that we allow lethal weapons like this on our roads.  At one point they say the only person responsible for the cyclist’s safety is the cyclist.   Might be a statement of fact, but it is unacceptable.

 

Richenda Walford
London Remembers  & Facebook & Twitter: @LondonRemembers

George Walford International Essay Prize

 

From: CamdenCyclingCampaign@... [mailto:CamdenCyclingCampaign@...] On Behalf Of Tony Raven
Sent: 08 March 2012 22:43
To: CamdenCyclingCampaign@...
Subject: Re: [CCC] Tony Raven's near-death:

 

 

It was one of those stop/move 10mph-ish things where the lanes move roughly together, sometimes ones moving ahead, sometimes the other.  This was in a move phase and just before I had spotted that there was a gap to move out and round the bus by going in front of the truck but it being a truck I chose not to take the risk.

Tony


On 08/03/2012 14:32, Richenda Walford wrote:

 

Tony

 

Could you estimate the speed you and the truck were travelling?   Were the speeds the same or was one of you in the process of moving ahead of the other?

 

The legalities are interesting but I’m also interested in exactly what happened from the point of view of how the rest of us can avoid it in future.

 

You should accept no blame for being distracted when the passenger started shouting at you.  How could you not be?

 

Richenda Walford
London Remembers  & Facebook & Twitter: @LondonRemembers

George Walford International Essay Prize

 

From: CamdenCyclingCampaign@... [mailto:CamdenCyclingCampaign@...] On Behalf Of Tony Raven
Sent: 08 March 2012 14:20
To: CamdenCyclingCampaign@...
Subject: Re: [CCC] Tony Raven's near-death:

 

 

My apologies for being away from the discussion for a short while.  First, to quote Mark Twain, reports of my "near death" are much exaggerated.

 

Second I am well aware of the on-off bus lanes issue all along Euston Road and it is something that should perhaps be looked at as it's not clear to an inexperienced cyclist what they should do at the ones which become left turn only lanes just short of the junction only for the bus lane to restart across the junction.  There is also a tendency for vehicles to turn left straight from the middle lane without regard to bicycles to their left. Normal practice by buses, who have size on their side, seems to be to treat them as a continuous straight ahead bus lane.

 

To answer Lionel's points though the truck was in the middle lane initially.  I was alongside the cab in the primary position in the bus lane.  As it started to come over into the left lane I wa s still alongside his cab ( hence the passenger leaning out and shouting at me where I must admit some fault in being distracted looking up at him and trying to work out what he was saying rather than paying attention to what he was doing).  I didn't have many options.  Going forward was blocked by the bus in front plus it's doubtful even if I knew what was going to happen, that I could have accelerated ahead of him.  It was also not an option in the time and space available to drop back the whole length of the truck to fall in behind.   What caught me by surprise was that while talking to me from he cab he should then turn straight into me.

On the legality of passing on the left, cyclists have been filtering on the left for a century without to my knowledge any legal objection.  It has therefore become accepted practice that is reinforced by the occasional painting of cycle lanes in that location.  Even though it is not relevant here I t hink it would be a long shot to rely on the defence as a driver that it was unusual or unexpected behaviour for a cyclist to pass on the left.

 

-- 

Tony

 

Apologies for any typos; sent from my iPad


On 8 Mar 2012, at 10:36, Lionel Shapiro <lishapiro@...> wrote:

 

About the 'suspended' issue of the bus-lane [and cycle lane]: as I said, I don't know of the specific bit at Tony's place, but you should look around on the bus-lanes near some turns at least: the bus-lanes get quite specific that they don't exist.

Paul, I hope you and not I are correct in general!

Lionel Shapiro
13, Primrose Hill Road
London   NW3  3DG
+44 (0) 20 7722 8864


On 07/03/2012 19:15, Paul Gannon wrote:

I can't imagine that Lionel's interpretation is correct, though it does reflect a lot of motor driver behaviour whereby they believe that once they have the front tip of their vehicle in front of a cyclist, they can turn left in front of them - the legendary 'left hook'. 

 

However, the Highway Code points 182 and 183 make the general point clear and specifically instructs to 'give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane ..'. Lionel seems to be suggesting that any bus lane is 'suspended' to allow vehicles to cross it without committing an offence at a junction. But if this was true, the HC would be wrong and superfluous. 

 

Also

 


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