Date   

Help with Islington Ride

John Chamberlain
 

Cycle Islington are leading a short (12.5k) family ride next Sunday 9th, meeting at Freightliners Farm, Sheringham Road, London N7 8PF at 1030, leaving at 1100 and back by 1. They are very short of marshals so if you are an experienced cyclist and have a couple of hours to spare they would be really glad to hear from you. It's a nice route too.

Contact John Hartley John@...

Details of the ride are here:  https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/early-autumn-family-pootle-by-bike-tickets-428150378307?aff=ebdssbcitybrowse.

And while I have your attention; we're heading for the Lea Valley again on the 16th. Details at https://camdencyclists.org.uk/events/camden-cyclists-ride-to-the-lea-valley/ (you need to book).

--

 

Regards

John Chamberlain

 

 


Re: Gordon Square

Mick Farrant
 

Increasing number of reports of bicycle thefts including one from one of GO councillors. Beware

 

Mick Farrant

 

From: main@camdencyclists.groups.io <main@camdencyclists.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Chamberlain
Sent: 03 October 2022 09:59
To: CCC Mailing List <camdencyclists@groups.io>
Subject: [camdencyclists] Gordon Square

 

Camden is consulting on permanently closing the north side of Gordon Square to motor traffic (it has been closed on and off for years for construction). We support this but want Camden to go further and close Gordon Street (it will be permanently closed anyway as part of the HS2 station works) plus Endsleigh Gardens to through motor traffic. Details via our website at https://camdencyclists.org.uk/2022/09/gordon-square/ or you can go direct to the consultation page at https://consultations.wearecamden.org/supporting-communities/gordonsquare.

Please reply in support, especially for the wider closure of Gordon Street and Endsleigh Gardens. Deadline is tomorrow but they will normally accept emails after the deadline (safetravel@...)

You can see all the consultations we have responded to or are responding to at https://camdencyclists.org.uk/category/consultations/

--

 

Regards

John Chamberlain

 

 


Gordon Square

John Chamberlain
 

Camden is consulting on permanently closing the north side of Gordon Square to motor traffic (it has been closed on and off for years for construction). We support this but want Camden to go further and close Gordon Street (it will be permanently closed anyway as part of the HS2 station works) plus Endsleigh Gardens to through motor traffic. Details via our website at https://camdencyclists.org.uk/2022/09/gordon-square/ or you can go direct to the consultation page at https://consultations.wearecamden.org/supporting-communities/gordonsquare.

Please reply in support, especially for the wider closure of Gordon Street and Endsleigh Gardens. Deadline is tomorrow but they will normally accept emails after the deadline (safetravel@...)

You can see all the consultations we have responded to or are responding to at https://camdencyclists.org.uk/category/consultations/

--

 

Regards

John Chamberlain

 

 


Re: Bishopsgate walking and cycling

John Chamberlain
 

Thanks for the reminder, Elena. People may remember the legal battle over banning motor vehicles including taxis. The deadline has been extended to the 10th October. I know that LCC were asking people to support keeping the scheme. As well as an important scheme, I think it is a matter of principle, so applies to all who use active travel.

See https://lcc.org.uk/news/take-action-bishopsgate/


John

 

On 30/09/22 08:39, Elena Moynihan wrote:


Bishopsgate walking and cycling

Elena Moynihan
 


Camden Cyclists Fulham Palace Ride

Geoff Stilwell
 

Sunday 2nd October 2022
Family ride to visit Fulham Palace, the former home of the Bishops of London from the 11th century until 1973.  Leisurely ride on mainly quiet roads and riverside pathways. 
There will be three start points in Hampstead and West Hampstead. Please let Geoff Stilwell (07788 202489 or geoffreyccc@...) know where you want to start.
Details on the Camden Cyclists website. You will find an Eventbrite link on the website to book your FREE ticket. It is filling up so time is of the essence.
Sunday is also 'Apple Day' at Fulham Palace. Celebrate the orchard in the walled garden at the Fulham Palace annual Apple Day celebration.
Normally entrance to Fulham Palace and gardens is free but there is a charge for this event day. However, you can still get in free if you book online using this link.
Hope to see you on Sunday.

Best Wishes
Geoff Stilwell

Ride Coordinator
camdencyclists.org.uk


Traffic calming British library

Luke Pearson
 

Hi camden cyclist
I am very upset with TFL for taking out the traffic calming measures outside the British library going towards Kings Cross and in the opposite direction I would like this put down as an agenda item For our next meeting for our next meeting
please from Luke

Sent from Luke Pearson's IPhone


Re: Consultation on South End Green

Elena Moynihan
 

I like it, seems like a doable and sensible solution Jean, as always !



On Sun, 25 Sept 2022 at 18:23, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:
I am sorry to have to say that I believe that Elena is right in saying that the bus stands are not going to be moved away from the south eastern loop road.

But there are other simpler ways to make the junction safer for cycling. I have identified three of the turns that seem to me to be conditions that give rise to the most common types of collisions. (See turns numbered 1, 2 and 3 in the sketch)


1. Turning right from South End Road into Pond Street (e.g. to go to the Hospital): here there is a risk of what we call ‘left hook’ - i.e. as the cycle moves ahead a motor vehicle comes from behind and turns left across the path of the cycle.
- this can be avoided by using the slip road as indicated by the blue dashed line. (one of you suggested that it would be a good idea to use Tiger crossings to help with right turns into and out of the slip road). I have indicated the position of existing zebra crossings (heavy dashes). These could  be converted to Tiger (or parallel) crossings. The one on South End Road would need to have the central island removed.

2. Going straight ahead on Fleet Road: another left hook situation. 
- the cyclists could turn into Pond Street and use the slip road via the Pond Street Tiger crossing

3. Going straight ahead on Pond Street into Constantine Road: another left hook situation plus the difficulty of making the movement when the middle of the junction is blocked by motor vehicles waiting to tum right. 
- this could be solved by means of another Tiger crossing across South End Road close to the junction (the informal crossing would be moved down and replaced by a zebra).

How does this look?

Jean


On 24 Sep 2022, at 21:29, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:

Hi Elena,
The 168 bus will still use the northwestern slip road, and will still sit there waiting to cross to the southeast slip road.
Fleet Road is already used as a holding area for the 24, whose future is uncertain anyway.
Jean asked us to think of ideas to help cyclists. That was mine, impractical as it might be.
Best wishes
James Brander 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, 14:42 Elena Moynihan, <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:
James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus  : another left hook situation. have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean











Re: Consultation on South End Green

Jean Dollimore
 

I am sorry to have to say that I believe that Elena is right in saying that the bus stands are not going to be moved away from the south eastern loop road.

But there are other simpler ways to make the junction safer for cycling. I have identified three of the turns that seem to me to be conditions that give rise to the most common types of collisions. (See turns numbered 1, 2 and 3 in the sketch)


1. Turning right from South End Road into Pond Street (e.g. to go to the Hospital): here there is a risk of what we call ‘left hook’ - i.e. as the cycle moves ahead a motor vehicle comes from behind and turns left across the path of the cycle.
- this can be avoided by using the slip road as indicated by the blue dashed line. (one of you suggested that it would be a good idea to use Tiger crossings to help with right turns into and out of the slip road). I have indicated the position of existing zebra crossings (heavy dashes). These could  be converted to Tiger (or parallel) crossings. The one on South End Road would need to have the central island removed.

2. Going straight ahead on Fleet Road: another left hook situation. 
- the cyclists could turn into Pond Street and use the slip road via the Pond Street Tiger crossing

3. Going straight ahead on Pond Street into Constantine Road: another left hook situation plus the difficulty of making the movement when the middle of the junction is blocked by motor vehicles waiting to tum right. 
- this could be solved by means of another Tiger crossing across South End Road close to the junction (the informal crossing would be moved down and replaced by a zebra).

How does this look?

Jean


On 24 Sep 2022, at 21:29, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:

Hi Elena,
The 168 bus will still use the northwestern slip road, and will still sit there waiting to cross to the southeast slip road.
Fleet Road is already used as a holding area for the 24, whose future is uncertain anyway.
Jean asked us to think of ideas to help cyclists. That was mine, impractical as it might be.
Best wishes
James Brander 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, 14:42 Elena Moynihan, <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:
James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus  : another left hook situation. have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean











Re: Consultation on South End Green

James Brander
 

Hi Elena,
The 168 bus will still use the northwestern slip road, and will still sit there waiting to cross to the southeast slip road.
Fleet Road is already used as a holding area for the 24, whose future is uncertain anyway.
Jean asked us to think of ideas to help cyclists. That was mine, impractical as it might be.
Best wishes
James Brander 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, 14:42 Elena Moynihan, <elena.moynihan@...> wrote:
James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus depos have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Re: Quick Win Improvements for Cycling

seymour susan
 

A couple more ideas for quick wins.
Replace the bike rack in Anglers Lane at the corner of Kentish Town Road. https://goo.gl/maps/kvV7xEKEN2uebnTV9
Allow cyclists to go left at the bottom of Royal College Street at all times except when there is green man for pedestrians. If you wait for the green light you miss the lights at the bottom of St. Pancras Way.
Going back to my Perrins Lane suggestion, I don't think we need to include blocking cars or taking away the parking. Just allow 2 way cycling and right turn at Heath St. for cycles.
Best wishes

Susan Seymour





On Sat, 24 Sept 2022 at 15:11, Steve Prowse <steve.prowse@...> wrote:
Dear Camden Cycle Campaign member. 

This is a call to action & a challenge to each and every one of you to make at least one photo contribution. 
Responding to consultations is probably the most important contribution that you can make to CCC and this is a close second. 
Please send any ideas to quickwins@... and you may be lucky to have your idea turned into reality leading to a better/safer Camden for cycling. 

Attached is an example, where a feeder into the ASL (Bike box) and double yellow lines would make a big difference - especially on weekends. 
Please make it clear where your photo was taken. Ideally, have location settings on (so the GPS coordinates get saved with the picture). Please send one email per location and put the road name in the subject line. 

image.png

We will show some other good examples at the next CCC meeting on 17th Oct. We also hope to see you at the next CCC social, bike workshop or led Ride. Keep an eye on the website for details. 

It is fantastic to see cycling taking off in London and your contributions can keep cycling on the up. 

Be safe & a role model to others. 

//Steve (CCC Coordinator)


On Tue, 13 Sept 2022 at 10:56, John Chamberlain <john@...> wrote:

Some of you will remember that in the past we maintained a list of 'quick wins', mostly relating to permeability improvements (dropped kerbs, contraflow cycling etc), that Camden could do relatively cheaply and without extensive consultation. We last updated this list in 2019 which was the last time Camden had funds for this sort of programme but by then it had been very successful in making minor improvements.

Camden have asked us for more examples, specifically relating to cycle lanes and ASLs that are difficult to access because of parking and loading etc, or other obstructions. We already have some suggestions:

  • Difficulty of getting to the lane on Royal College Street southbound  where it starts on Kentish Town Road
  • Feeder lane to the ASL on Kentish Town Road northbound just south of Hawley Road blocked by parked vehicles
  • Feeder lane to the ASL on Hunter Street just south of Tavistock Place blocked by parked vehicles

Please send any ideas to quickwins@... . If you can include a photo or Streetview link that would be great.

Thanks

--

 


John Chamberlain

 



Re: Quick Win Improvements for Cycling

Steve Prowse
 

Dear Camden Cycle Campaign member. 

This is a call to action & a challenge to each and every one of you to make at least one photo contribution. 
Responding to consultations is probably the most important contribution that you can make to CCC and this is a close second. 
Please send any ideas to quickwins@... and you may be lucky to have your idea turned into reality leading to a better/safer Camden for cycling. 

Attached is an example, where a feeder into the ASL (Bike box) and double yellow lines would make a big difference - especially on weekends. 
Please make it clear where your photo was taken. Ideally, have location settings on (so the GPS coordinates get saved with the picture). Please send one email per location and put the road name in the subject line. 

image.png

We will show some other good examples at the next CCC meeting on 17th Oct. We also hope to see you at the next CCC social, bike workshop or led Ride. Keep an eye on the website for details. 

It is fantastic to see cycling taking off in London and your contributions can keep cycling on the up. 

Be safe & a role model to others. 

//Steve (CCC Coordinator)


On Tue, 13 Sept 2022 at 10:56, John Chamberlain <john@...> wrote:

Some of you will remember that in the past we maintained a list of 'quick wins', mostly relating to permeability improvements (dropped kerbs, contraflow cycling etc), that Camden could do relatively cheaply and without extensive consultation. We last updated this list in 2019 which was the last time Camden had funds for this sort of programme but by then it had been very successful in making minor improvements.

Camden have asked us for more examples, specifically relating to cycle lanes and ASLs that are difficult to access because of parking and loading etc, or other obstructions. We already have some suggestions:

  • Difficulty of getting to the lane on Royal College Street southbound  where it starts on Kentish Town Road
  • Feeder lane to the ASL on Kentish Town Road northbound just south of Hawley Road blocked by parked vehicles
  • Feeder lane to the ASL on Hunter Street just south of Tavistock Place blocked by parked vehicles

Please send any ideas to quickwins@... . If you can include a photo or Streetview link that would be great.

Thanks

--

 


John Chamberlain

 



Re: Consultation on South End Green

Elena Moynihan
 

James - The problem with relocating the buses is that it just won't happen:  these bus depos have been the reason for the long delay to the project, as various alternatives ( Fleet, Constantine and others ) have been put forward and rejected ( mainly by people living on those roads ).
Asking TfL to consider this again would mean another 20 year paralysis, getting nowhere.

That slip road is currently full of traffic, idling buses and parked cars:   getting it back to use by pedestrians and bikes will be a huge bonus.

Elena




On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 19:24, James Brander <jbrander47@...> wrote:
Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Re: Consultation on South End Green

James Brander
 

Hi, As a regular user of this junction, I note the following:
The main cycle desire lines are to and from the Heath, via Fleet Road and East Heath Road, returning obviously on Constantine Road. The parking on Fleet Rd often introduces a pinch point, exacerbated by the excessive traffic speeds even outside the primary school, which it would be good to eliminate. 
The complications I experience are from vehicles turning into Pond St and emerging from the north-western side lane. But traffic is usually so congested that there is little actual danger.

So, I would propose the following:
Relocate the 24 holding area to Fleet Road and shift the parking south to reduce carriageway width and traffic speeds on that road.
Relocate the 168 holding area to the South eastern side lane.
Divert all southbound traffic from East Heath Rd into the south eastern side lane.
Reduce the carriageway width past the public loo to create space for a two-way cycle lane.
Close, as proposed, the north western side lane to all but buses and cycles.

I'm sure these ideas will go down like the proverbial balloons, but there they are.
Yours in cycling,
James Brander 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, 00:07 Richard Thomas, <richard@...> wrote:
Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Re: Consultation on South End Green

Richard Thomas
 

Douglas - I think this looks great - Richard


On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 22:26, Douglas Schwab via groups.io <dhschwab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Re: Consultation on South End Green

Douglas Schwab
 

Hi
I use the area as a cyclist and pedestrian and cyclist for decades. It is a mess and has been for many reworkings. How can such a peace backwater get so much confused traffic?

The new scheme is worse than existing for cyclist as there are turning areas on Fleet Road. 

The existing pedestrian crossings are where pedestrians are (imo), just difficult for cars to race through.

Street cafes for Starbucks? I doubt they would financially commit to staffing outdoor tables.

Is a complete novice with a terrible dtrawing I add my naive proposal to join Fleet Road, the gents and the Park to be a singular green space. Hopefully this would be a fenced mini-woodland as the Heath is moments away but gets little view South End Green.

The intent is simplify lots of (historic) roads into simple junctions and offer a reason to do so, gaining park green space…and better for cyclists.



Bye for now




Douglas








On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:25, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

Today’s CNJ had a full page article as well as a few letters about this consultation. The talk is all about the long-lived controversy as to where the 168 bus should ‘stand’.

The consultation is mainly about a proposal to close the slip road to motor vehicles, allowing two-way cycling and providing a streatery for some of the cafés.

It also includes proposals to improve the pedestrian crossings at the junction of Fleet Road/ Pond Street/South End Road/ Constantine Road (removing the island alnd allowing people to walk straight over)

So far, so good and I think we should support these proposals.

BUT: what about cycling? 
- we gain a two-way route through a nicely closed slip road which avoids using the above mentioned junction. But turning right into the slip road is tricky: any ideas as to how to make it easier?

- improvements for cycling should be made at at the above mentioned junction:  is there room to put protected cycle lanes on the approaches, through the junction and on the exits?
(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

Please suggest ideas for me to include in our response.



I have summarised the details on our website here:

and you can go straight to the consultation on Camden’s website here:


Jean




Re: Consultation on South End Green

Richard Thomas
 

I doubt many will agree, but I don't think the current arrangement is bad. The zebras are great. Almost all the cars come close to stopping and take turns. What's missing is a zebra from outside Silverberry to the fountain rather than having to walk up the hill to the one up by M&S. Are the any accident statistics to suggest the current arrangement is dangerous? If not, perhaps what it needs is something to give cyclists confidence. But it's not easy. Could the zebras be made into parallel crossings, especially to help the South End Green Road to Pond Street turn. Coming out of Pond Street into Constantine takes a bit of confidence/assertiveness.

Perhaps a mini roundabout would help formalise the turn taking and clarify rights of way. But I'd keep the existing turn from Fleet Road to Constantine. There would be more space if some of the island with the toilets could be removed, and also the space round the fountain. These are underused spaces of little amenity value because they are effectively in the middle of a busy road junction. 

I think it would be a mistake to remove the island linking the zebras crossings. But perhaps you'd have to sacrifice it for a mini roundabout or two. 

At least they aren't proposing traffic lights!

Where can we comment?

Richard

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022, 18:06 Mick Farrant via groups.io, <mirog=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Tgis is a dangerous space for all, not just cyclists. Made worse by parked buses on Fleet Road often for long periods. Unclear also of changes in bus routes ? more or less  Not sure of solution but more thought needed/ Msjor area for patients etc to RF

 

Mick Farrant

 

From: main@camdencyclists.groups.io <main@camdencyclists.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Coulouris
Sent: 22 September 2022 17:38
To: main@camdencyclists.groups.io
Subject: Re: [camdencyclists] Consultation on South End Green

 

This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

 

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 

 

 

The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:

 

 

I think we should object to that junction design.

 

George



On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

 

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

 

 


Re: Consultation on South End Green

Mick Farrant
 

Tgis is a dangerous space for all, not just cyclists. Made worse by parked buses on Fleet Road often for long periods. Unclear also of changes in bus routes ? more or less  Not sure of solution but more thought needed/ Msjor area for patients etc to RF

 

Mick Farrant

 

From: main@camdencyclists.groups.io <main@camdencyclists.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Coulouris
Sent: 22 September 2022 17:38
To: main@camdencyclists.groups.io
Subject: Re: [camdencyclists] Consultation on South End Green

 

This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

 

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 

 

 

The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:

 

 

I think we should object to that junction design.

 

George



On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

 

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)

 

 


Re: Consultation on South End Green

Elena Moynihan
 

I am here a lot both walking and cycling as it's very local.

Firstly, huge hurray that it's hopefully finally happening, we've been asking for this for a decade or more:  the usual super-vocal minority screaming and shouting against it for no apparent reason.

Regarding your points on cycling, all very valid, the only thing I would say is that these are very very busy roads:  heavy traffic down East Heath, and of course Pond St with the Hospital.  They are never going to be an oasis of peace :-) .  I don't have an answer about that junction but cycling down South End is always going to be trafficky I think, and I can't see how they can carve out cycle lanes, just not enough space.

What would be nice is if the strip of parking spaces that has been taken out since Covid ( we still have those plastic barriers in there) was made permanent, and that side of the road was made into a cycle lane, following on from the slip road:  what do people think ?

E.


On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 17:38, George Coulouris <coulouris@...> wrote:
This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 


The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:


I think we should object to that junction design.

George

On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)



Re: Consultation on South End Green

George Coulouris
 

This junction is important in the future of the Camden cycling network because it connects Pond Street to Constantine Road thus linking the Haverstock Hill route with the Savernake LTN and C6. And in future we hope up Willow Road to the Whitestone Pond.

Straight across from Pond Street to Constantine Road is always a challenge due to the number of motors converging on the junction from 3 directions and tussling to get into Pond street or Constantine. In practice priorities for motors are very unclear but at least the existing arrangement )below) has an island in the middle, linked with 2 zebras. 


The new scheme diverts pedestrians from their desire lines and has turning vehicles stopping in the middle of the junction to turn into Pond St and Constantine Rd. I wouldn’t like to cycle through it with some vehicles waiting to turn and others going straight through:


I think we should object to that junction design.

George

On 22 Sep 2022, at 16:24, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:

(e.g. it would be nice to be able to go down South End Road and left into Constantine Road or turn left from Fleet Road into Pond Street without being cut it by drivers)


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