Re: Please show your support for the Haverstock Hill cycle lanes


Jean Dollimore
 

I’d like to put in a word for ‘bus stop bypasses’ which, as John says, are our preferred solution.

The bus shelter and the flag are on an island so that’s where people wait to get on the bus and land when getting off the bus. The cycle track mounts a ramp and runs round behind the bus shelter and there’s a clearly marked zebra crossing on which pedestrians have priority. 

Camden Council has built 19 of these on the cycle routes (e.g. 5 on Prince of Wales Road, 4 on Chalk Fram road and H Hill south of PoW. 7 on Gray’s Inn Road), 

But the island has to be 2.5 m wide, so you do need some extra road space to fit them in; that space isn’t available on Haverstock Hill north of PoW nor on York Way.

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Richard, you say: "It seems to me that the hierarchy of peds/buses first, then cycles, then motor vehicles is not respected in the recently implemented solution. Cycles are forced into the peds' natural space instead of being given priority over cars.” That doesn’t seem to me to be the case with bus stop bypasses. Are you referring to the SUBBs (shared use bus boarders) on the uphill side of Haverstock Hill? e.g. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52301052025_5f3de36cf0_k.jpg


Jean


On 3 Sep 2022, at 21:45, Richard Thomas <richard@...> wrote:

Thanks for asking the question Moy. I cycle past a lot of bus stops and think there might be a better solution. 

That's actually a great bus stop. As well as having enough space so conflict with peds is less likely, there's never any problem staying in the carriageway. There's a clearly marked lane up to and beyond the bus cage and northbound traffic volumes are low, so it's easy to pass buses on the outside. I rarely (almost never) use the lane inside the stop.

In the lane up from Camden town to Prince of Wales Road passed Chalk Farm, for example,  it can be harder to cut into the traffic and sometimes I'm forced to use the lane past the small island boarders. These rightly have a hump and a zebra and I'm very cautious. 

I also use buses, often with a big suitcase (that's why I'm on the bus), and getting off can be quite tricky - stressful even. I don't think disembarking passengers should have to negotiate a cycle lane. 

It seems to me that the hierarchy of peds/buses first, then cycles, then motor vehicles is not respected in the recently implemented solution. Cycles are forced into the peds' natural space instead of being given priority over cars. 

Referring to John's earlier comment, with the right markings (e.g. a short gap in a coloured lane) it could be clear the bus has priority and that bikes should give way to buses pulling in and out, but that cars should move out to make way for cycles and if not enough room should wait behind the bus until oncoming traffic permits. 

I'm not sure if I've ever seen this, but I still think it might work. Maybe someone has seen something similar in another country?

Thanks again for discussing, Richard 

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022, 21:07 John Chamberlain, <john@...> wrote:

Moy is right, this is the preferred solution, but unfortunately this requires space that is not available on some of Camden's roads without severely cutting back the footway. In this case the options are either a shared bus-boarder/cycle lane (as on the uphill side of Haverstock Hill), or a cycle lane that stops at the bus stop.



John 


On 03/09/22 20:59, Moy El-Bushra via groups.io wrote:
Richard,

I'm not sure if you're aware of these, but there is already a solution to the issue of how to get cycle lanes to bypass bus stops - the cycle lane is diverted behind the bus stop, so cyclists are neither forced out into the traffic to get past a bus that's just pulled in, nor scrunched into the kerb by the bus because there's nowhere to go to the left (see attached photo).

Personally, I find these to be quite a good idea. Of course,  it can happen that a careless pedestrian steps into the cycle lane, but then that can happen anywhere. 

And I think if there were more of these around, pedestrians would become more aware of the need to look first.

The problem is that they are not very commonly implemented, but I think they should become the norm.

Or is that you are aware of these, but you're suggesting that there are better solutions?

Kind regards,

Moy







On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 at 14:37, John Chamberlain
<john@...> wrote:

Richard's suggestion is pretty much what Camden have done on the downhill bus stops here (and in some other places where road space is very constrained). See

https://www.flickr.com/photos/camdencyclists/52287796633/in/album-72177720297763239/

The difference is that the route around the outside of the bus cage is not marked other than with a cycle logo (preferably more than one).

The difficulties I see with marking a lane are:

  1. The bus has to cross it to get into and out of the stop. Would buses always give way to cycles? If not, it might lead cyclists into a false sense of security.
  2. Likewise with regard to motor traffic coming from behind.
But I think it might be worth discussing with Camden officers, particularly as schemes come up to their annual review.
 


John Chamberlain

 
 
On 03/09/22 12:35, Richard Thomas wrote:
Hi Jean

Thanks for sharing these links.  I've supported on commonplace.

Does anyone know why this solution can't be trialled for bus stops to reduce risk of cyclist-pedestrian conflict?
 - Coloured tarmac cycling lane going round outside of bus cage, taking cyclists into traffic passing bus on outside but with clear lane priority.
 - Alternate advisory (dashed marking) cycle lane through bus cage.  Buses can stop in lane, but if no bus cyclist goes straight on unimpeded.

Advantages I perceive:
 - Cyclists not confident to move into traffic to pass a waiting bus would have to wait behind it, but that's what you need to do now because it is dangerous to pass bus on inside when passengers are getting on or off because they naturally step into cycle lane and in any case have zebra priority.
 - Cyclists wanting to pass bus on the outside would have road markings to show that they are entitled to do so (which they are already, but likely to suffer close pass or abuse).

Thanks for any comments
Richard



On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 at 10:31, Jean Dollimore <jean@...> wrote:
The cycle lanes on Haverstock Hill are almost complete and Camden Council is now collecting feedback via Commonplace.

If you haven’t yet been there to try them out, we have some photos here:




Please go here and give your positive response:



If you have time, please look at the comments from other people and say you ‘agree’ to comments put there by other supporters.


Jean




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